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sekritomgThe first problem I solved today was how to make my Semagic client work. The second, getting the old second-hand crap my friend gave me for no reason out of my trunk. Now I will atempt to take on the man, the man being for some reason anti-porn about people who are depicted as formerly being 9-year-olds. (I assure you, that sentence makes sense in some dimension.) Despite the fact that I am all like an adult with a job and shit, often I enjoy this type of thing, and seeing people I don't know on the internet get upset annoys me.
If you are unfamiliar, DeviantArt has always basically had a "no under-aged erotica of any kind, including cartoon characters" policy. In the aforeposted link, they basically call out the South Park fandom: Some animated series might actually allude to its underage characters being placed into sexually themed situations or "adult" situations; “Family Guy” has alluded to toddler “Stewie” having sex or having homosexual desires and “South Park” routinely places its grade school cast into mature situations are two such examples. Regardless of how the creator or series treats its cast the current deviantART policy will still govern submissions without exceptions.
So, some SP artists are like basically calling jihad, or something. And I see why this kind of thing would infuriate artists. So, allow me to present for your enjoyment some practical solutions to this OMG PROBLEM. I hope that maybe some of this will also prompt discussion about various issues in South Park art in general.
1. Don't post to DA. Y!Gal is receptive to basically anything. And while they have a very strict ban against underage users, I think this is preferable to disallowing the work to be posted at all. If it's up somewhere on the internet, a work can get passed around, right? If you have the skill and time, you might attempt to build your own website. There are many weird art sites out there that may not have similarly developed restrictions. And you could always try locking things on your journal or at![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
slashpark.
2. Don't call attention to yourself. Once on the internet, prolific Xiaolin Showdown fanfic writer![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
silvarbelle had a couple of works taken down for being porn. (Which they were.) Instead of just letting it go or posting elsewhere, she re-posted everything with big capslock warnings to the DA staff that they, like, couldn't silence her art, or something. Surprise, she got banned. Even if this is infuriating and sucks, remember that DA is a private site that can make whatever rules it likes, and most SP slash art on DA is breaking those rules automatically.
3a. Don't put the characters in their typical outfits. This is actually something that pisses me off about most SP art to no end. The character is not made by his outfit. Even on SP, which uses that neo-construction paper aesthetic, you can tell which 4th grader is which by his voice and attitude. (See "Super Best Friends," for one thing.) It has always frustrated me that SP artists just rely on the little parkas and hats to characterize their drawings.
I think the best piece of SP art I ever saw -- indeed, the one that got me into the fandom -- was this one. You can tell exactly which character is which by their hair, general color scheme, posture, gait, attitude, and interactions. Often I see pieces of SP fan art that just keep the characters (aged up or not) in their little outfits and it's impossible to tell Cartman from Stan or Clyde from Butters or really anyone from anyone, unless Kenny's got on a hood. That is fucking lazy. (This is an even broader approach to the same problem, done reasonably well considering.)
And yeah, I get that those two works are not going to be deleted because they are not erotic. But if the fandom kind of adopts this tactic, it may foster some good will, or even make the so-called "underage" art more difficult to notice.
3b. Age them. Although DA says this is still not okay, if you draw a grown-up Kyle not wearing 9-year-old Kyle's clothing, it's automatically more difficult to tell who it's meant to be. This is DA's take: Previously deviantART policy did attempt to acknowledge changes in character design to reflect an older individual but these attempts to grant reasonable exceptions were difficult at best. There was little way to distinguish a genuinely altered character design from variations in skill level and artistic stylization and in the end the decision was made to completely eliminate any possibility for an exception. So now it's disallowed. And I do think it's retarded. But, come on. Of course when little Kyle is standing next to big Kyle, you get the idea that one is meant to be older. But this is an attempt at creating deliberate context. If you just had that older Kyle figure standing on his own, with or without clothes off, the situation would become more difficult to determine. The size of the eyes, for example, is a telling thing. But eye size and shape is relative, especially when the anime style allows for so many kooky fucking eye sizes.
4. Save your work. Nothing online is a safe haven. Back that crap up.
5. Don't say it's South Park. Continuing from 3a and 3b, I suppose, if it looks like Stan and Kyle, maybe you don't even have to say it's Stan and Kyle. Maybe you can say that it's Stan and Kyle, but not say it's SP art. After all, there are probably thousands of black- and red-haired boys named Stan and Kyle, respectively. (And plenty of fat Erics, and kids named Christophe. Butters and Token might be more problematic.) If a character looks like Stan but isn't dressed like Stan, you don't say it's Stan, and he looks about 21 years old, DA really loses their reason for taking your art down.
Am I right?
If you are unfamiliar, DeviantArt has always basically had a "no under-aged erotica of any kind, including cartoon characters" policy. In the aforeposted link, they basically call out the South Park fandom: Some animated series might actually allude to its underage characters being placed into sexually themed situations or "adult" situations; “Family Guy” has alluded to toddler “Stewie” having sex or having homosexual desires and “South Park” routinely places its grade school cast into mature situations are two such examples. Regardless of how the creator or series treats its cast the current deviantART policy will still govern submissions without exceptions.
So, some SP artists are like basically calling jihad, or something. And I see why this kind of thing would infuriate artists. So, allow me to present for your enjoyment some practical solutions to this OMG PROBLEM. I hope that maybe some of this will also prompt discussion about various issues in South Park art in general.
1. Don't post to DA. Y!Gal is receptive to basically anything. And while they have a very strict ban against underage users, I think this is preferable to disallowing the work to be posted at all. If it's up somewhere on the internet, a work can get passed around, right? If you have the skill and time, you might attempt to build your own website. There are many weird art sites out there that may not have similarly developed restrictions. And you could always try locking things on your journal or at
slashpark.2. Don't call attention to yourself. Once on the internet, prolific Xiaolin Showdown fanfic writer
silvarbelle had a couple of works taken down for being porn. (Which they were.) Instead of just letting it go or posting elsewhere, she re-posted everything with big capslock warnings to the DA staff that they, like, couldn't silence her art, or something. Surprise, she got banned. Even if this is infuriating and sucks, remember that DA is a private site that can make whatever rules it likes, and most SP slash art on DA is breaking those rules automatically.3a. Don't put the characters in their typical outfits. This is actually something that pisses me off about most SP art to no end. The character is not made by his outfit. Even on SP, which uses that neo-construction paper aesthetic, you can tell which 4th grader is which by his voice and attitude. (See "Super Best Friends," for one thing.) It has always frustrated me that SP artists just rely on the little parkas and hats to characterize their drawings.
I think the best piece of SP art I ever saw -- indeed, the one that got me into the fandom -- was this one. You can tell exactly which character is which by their hair, general color scheme, posture, gait, attitude, and interactions. Often I see pieces of SP fan art that just keep the characters (aged up or not) in their little outfits and it's impossible to tell Cartman from Stan or Clyde from Butters or really anyone from anyone, unless Kenny's got on a hood. That is fucking lazy. (This is an even broader approach to the same problem, done reasonably well considering.)
And yeah, I get that those two works are not going to be deleted because they are not erotic. But if the fandom kind of adopts this tactic, it may foster some good will, or even make the so-called "underage" art more difficult to notice.
3b. Age them. Although DA says this is still not okay, if you draw a grown-up Kyle not wearing 9-year-old Kyle's clothing, it's automatically more difficult to tell who it's meant to be. This is DA's take: Previously deviantART policy did attempt to acknowledge changes in character design to reflect an older individual but these attempts to grant reasonable exceptions were difficult at best. There was little way to distinguish a genuinely altered character design from variations in skill level and artistic stylization and in the end the decision was made to completely eliminate any possibility for an exception. So now it's disallowed. And I do think it's retarded. But, come on. Of course when little Kyle is standing next to big Kyle, you get the idea that one is meant to be older. But this is an attempt at creating deliberate context. If you just had that older Kyle figure standing on his own, with or without clothes off, the situation would become more difficult to determine. The size of the eyes, for example, is a telling thing. But eye size and shape is relative, especially when the anime style allows for so many kooky fucking eye sizes.
4. Save your work. Nothing online is a safe haven. Back that crap up.
5. Don't say it's South Park. Continuing from 3a and 3b, I suppose, if it looks like Stan and Kyle, maybe you don't even have to say it's Stan and Kyle. Maybe you can say that it's Stan and Kyle, but not say it's SP art. After all, there are probably thousands of black- and red-haired boys named Stan and Kyle, respectively. (And plenty of fat Erics, and kids named Christophe. Butters and Token might be more problematic.) If a character looks like Stan but isn't dressed like Stan, you don't say it's Stan, and he looks about 21 years old, DA really loses their reason for taking your art down.
Am I right?
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no subject
Date: 2010-05-18 00:59 (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-18 05:38 (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-18 07:18 (UTC)I try not to get worked up about these dilemmas, but upon reading the absolute ignorance of people who oppose these concepts for an illogical moral reason, I'm just in dismay. People are so fucking stupid.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-19 00:32 (UTC)What's frustrating here -- which admittedly is super unimportant -- is that everyone is a moron. Yeah, DA is kinda lame and totally overreacting to unlikely but perceived legal problems. On the other hand, people who want porn on DA may be ethically/legally sound, but DA can make whatever rules they feel like, and whining gets you nowhere.
Really what annoys me about this (other than the whining) is that, you know, the reason shit like this (http://yaoi.y-gallery.net/view/676702/) as porn of 9-year-olds is because you made no conscious effort whatsoever to make them look different than this (http://www.boston.com/ae/specials/culturedesk/south%20park.jpg). Except, like, they have hair and hands now. Hands that are supporting Stan's balls while Kyle slobbers all over his dick. Mmmm. Even though I'm sure the artist didn't intend to make her picture kiddie porn, and I know this isn't on DA. It's just, like, if you're such a great artist, put your back into it, or something.